more new laws

[xmark1234]

i was watching the news today and as from this morning they are going to fine you for hogging the middle lane on motorways i think its a great idea what do you lot think of this good or bad ?

[amethyst]

Re: more new laws

i was watching the news today and as from this morning they are going to fine you for hogging the middle lane on motorways i think its a great idea what do you lot think of this good or bad ?

Too many hogging the middle lane and being a nuisance,I have even seen lorries trucks etc doing it maybe they should be fined, teach them a lesson I have no sympathy for them also they should have more stricter rulings on mobile phones if you are caught take the phone off them,

[PC66]

Re: more new laws

What's actually happened is that the fixed penalty system has been extended to include driving without due care and attention; the middle-lane issue is the one aspect of this which has received a lot of publicity.

I'm not at all supportive of this move, as I think that the issue of what constitutes inconsiderate driving is too subjective, and will effectively make the cop issuing the ticket judge and jury as well. Yes, as with all existing fixed penalty notices there will be option of going to court, but the fixed-penalty system is already open to widespread abuse and resulting injustice.

Look at what's happened over mobile phones since use of handheld phones was banned in 2003 as a good example of this. The fixed-penalty option for this offence means that the police now regularly hand out fixed penalty notices not just in the obvious cases which were the original intent of the law, but also to drivers who are making a quick call while stuck in a huge traffic jam and not moving anywhere, and even while parked at the roadside with the handbrake applied if the engine is running. Just pick up a phone to move it from dash to seat and you could get a ticket if observed. You'd even better be careful about just scratching your ear if there's a cop around, lest he thinks you're holding a mobile phone and pulls you over.

Sure, you can opt to go to court where, theoretically, the age-old principle of being assumed innocent unless and until the prosecution proves guilt "beyond any reasonable doubt" applies. But we know that in practice if it comes down to your word against the police with nothing else to support your case, the "justice" system will give more credence to the policeman's well-rehearsed statement than it will to yours, just because he is a policeman, regardless of whether he was being bloody minded (e.g. the stopped at the roadside scenario) or was genuinely mistaken (e.g. scratching the ear).

While the fixed penalty system is promoted as being a way to acknowledge supposed wrong-doing and pay a reduced penalty without the hassle of having to go to court, it is also a very effective way of increasing government revenue collection by the very way in which it operates. They know that in many cases even unfairly issued tickets will be paid, simply because the driver considers it better to write-off £60 or £100 (and accept points, if applicable) than to take a whole day off to go to court, spend probably another couple of days trying to prepare his case, and still risk being found guilty anyway and facing a much higher fine.

Watch this creeping extension of what the police deem to be "inconsiderate driving" now that they have fixed-penalty powers for it. Do you want to be handed a fixed penalty notice because one cop decides that you stayed in the middle lane for 10 seconds too long?

[darren]

Re: more new laws

i think this is one of the best laws to be brought in.
one that benefits motorists.
hopefully a heavy fine will stop this dangerous practice.

ive seen hogging quite a lot over the yrs and id always hoped something would be done.

i was watching the news today and as from this morning they are going to fine you for hogging the middle lane on motorways i think its a great idea what do you lot think of this good or bad ?

[sweep]

Re: more new laws

i was watching the news today and as from this morning they are going to fine you for hogging the middle lane on motorways i think its a great idea what do you lot think of this good or bad ?

They don't seem able to enforce the laws we already have, every other driver I pass is on there mobile despite the law. so what is the point unless they start employing people to enforce it.

[safclass]

Re: more new laws

I agree Sweep - i think both of these laws are important, especially the mobile phones - but how often do you see people using them? Police can't enforce the current law so how they gonna do more?? Maybe they need to invent something that stops phones from working if they are within distance of steering wheel !! better get on my design!

[amethyst]

Re: more new laws

I agree Sweep - i think both of these laws are important, especially the mobile phones - but how often do you see people using them? Police can't enforce the current law so how they gonna do more?? Maybe they need to invent something that stops phones from working if they are within distance of steering wheel !! better get on my design!

That would be a brilliant idea

[sweep]

Re: more new laws

I believe such a device has already been invented, but who's going to pay to have them installed.

[PC66]

Re: more new laws

Any such system would need elements in both the vehicle and the phone, and if ever implemented would likely apply only to new cars from a certain date and new mobile phones sold from a certain date. Unless you want to get absolutely draconian and pass legislation demanding that all cars currently on the road be retro-fitted with the appropriate apparatus and that all the millions of existing GSM phones can no longer legally be used.

[sweep]

Re: more new laws

Any such system would need elements in both the vehicle and the phone, and if ever implemented would likely apply only to new cars from a certain date and new mobile phones sold from a certain date. Unless you want to get absolutely draconian and pass legislation demanding that all cars currently on the road be retro-fitted with the appropriate apparatus and that all the millions of existing GSM phones can no longer legally be used.

So basically it would take decades for said technology to become effective.

[PC66]

Re: more new laws

So basically it would take decades for said technology to become effective.

Yep - And even then if the aim is only to prevent illegal use of the phone while driving, there would be some problems to iron out.

Simply disabling the phone while the vehicle is in motion (or the engine is running) would preclude legal use in speaker-phone mode with the phone clipped in a dash holder. Preventing use in non-speaker mode unless a headset is connected might be an option, although that would not in itself guarantee legal use, since it would still be possible to hold the phone in the hand for setting up a call, etc.

Detection of the unit being held in the hand is another possibility, but then what about passengers? Some sort of measurement of proximity to the normal driving position would be unlikely to be accurate enough in all situations to reliably prevent use by the driver but not also disable the phone for a passenger next to him.

And then what happens when the rules change in a few years, as they tend to do? I wouldn't be at all surprised if in another few years even the use of hands-free mobile telephones becomes illegal while driving.

Keep in mind as well that GSM phones tend to be built for worldwide markets, albeit sometimes divided into certain regional variants (e.g. European GSM phones operate on different frequencies than their North American counterparts). If each country went its own way with this sort of thing, the phones would have to cater for all the national differences in systems. No doubt here it would become a standardized European scheme implemented under EU directives, since the EU dictates just about everything we do now anyway.

But even if all these issues could be resolved satisfactorily, do we really want such an instrusive enforcement method?

[xmark1234]

Re: more new laws

by heck this thread got some ppl going lol glad i started it totaly agree with you all

[barry21]

Re: more new laws

I think this law is great especially if it policed well.
Hogging the middle lane of a motorway for hours on end just winds most motorists up.
I was taught by my driving instructor that after you have overtaken the slow moving vehicle on the motorway, you need to move over to the slow lane as soon as possible.
Tailgating is another thing that is being outlawed. If it is policed properly then it should stop those who think it is fun to drive about 1mm away from your rear bumper.
The amount of people on mobile phones amazes me as I thought it was illegal nowadays to drive and use a mobile.
with this in mind it will be interesting to see if these new laws are going to make any difference at all.

[Sly]

Re: more new laws

I hate middle lane hoggers, however I just see this as a ruse to fine drivers. It's an easy buck. I regularly see the police sitting on the motorways near me looking to hand out tickets.

[PC66]

Re: more new laws

Tailgating is another thing that is being outlawed.

Nothing new has been outlawed by this legislation, it's just that the part of the existing legislation which covered these things (careless/inconsiderate driving) has been brought within the scope of the fixed penalty system.

I hate middle lane hoggers, however I just see this as a ruse to fine drivers.

Which is my major concern and why I don't agree with the changes, for the reasons regarding the fixed-penalty system that I already outlined earlier. As much as we might hate certain actions by other inconsiderate drivers (and I'm certainly one who detests the tailgaters), this will result in cops becoming "ticket happy" and in many fixed penalties being issued unfairly.

A BBC report a short time ago included references to what appears to have been officially issued notes about the sort of things which police are expected to target:

But police are expected to focus on situations involving slightly aggressive and inconsiderate driving, such as:

* Driving too close to the vehicle in front

* Failing to give way at a junction (not requiring evasive action by another driver)

* Overtaking and pushing into a queue of traffic

* Being in the wrong lane and pushing into a queue on a roundabout

* Lane discipline, eg needlessly hogging the middle or outside lanes

* Inappropriate speed

* Wheel-spins, handbrake turns and other careless manoeuvres

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22770064

What exactly is "Being in the wrong lane and pushing into a queue on a roundabout" supposed to cover? Certainly there's deliberate pushing into a line, but how many times have we all found ourselves stuck in the wrong lane simply due to poor advance signage and being in an unfamiliar place, trying to get to the right lane for the way we want to go? You can just bet that cops trying to meet ticket targets will abuse this one.

And what is "Failing to give way at a junction (not requiring evasive action by another driver)" even supposed to mean?