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  • European Microstates

    There are five European microstates. In alphabetical order they are Andorra, Liechtenstein, Monaco, San Marino, Vatican City. Just one question: is it really worth having such small areas of land as countries in their own right?

    Vatican City
    Let's start with Vatican City. It's the smallest officially recognised independent state in the world by both area and population. According to Wikipedia, its area is just 44 hectares (110 acres). That's equivalent to 0.44 square km (0.17 square miles) and its population is just over 800.

    How can such an infinitesimal plot of land justify being a country in its own right? It's a mickey taker really, the joker in the pack. Vatican City must be smaller than some English villages (possibly even hamlets). It's certainly only a fraction the size of Alton Towers 800 acres (3.2 square km), and Thorpe Park 500 acres (2.0 square km). Although you have to pay to go in them they're not countries in their own right separate from the UK.

    Being as Vatican City is situated in the heart of Rome, and thus surrounded by Rome, why not just make it part of Rome? I'm aware that Rome is divided into administrative areas called municipi (singular municipio). Why don't they just make Vatican a municipio of Rome?

    Is it true that, as I've been led to believe, you don't need a passport to cross from Rome to Vatican City or vice versa? Someone told me that it's difficult to tell exactly where the border is even. Is that true?

    Monaco
    The second smallest country in the world. On Google Maps, you have to zoom in close to find it! According to Wikipedia, its area is 2.02 square km (0.78 square miles), and population is 36,371, making it the most densely populated country in the world. The Franco-Monacoan land border is just 4.4 km (2.7 miles), its coastline is 4.1 km (2.5 miles). It would probably take me less than an hour to walk its entire coast length, and about an hour to walk the said land border. Monaco is long and narrow, its width ranges from 1.7 km (1.1 miles) at the widest point to 349 metres (382 yards) at the narrowest point. What a comical joke it is to call that a country!

    It's hardly surprising the Monaco Formula 1 Grand Prix takes place on a road circuit, requiring road closures, not a race track circuit like most other F1 venues. It must take most of Monte Carlo's roads, if not the entirety of Monaco! I doubt if Monaco has enough land space there to build a permanent racing circuit like some other countries have. Likewise, when Monaco won the 1971 Eurovision Song Contest, it's no wonder the 1972 ESC came from Edinburgh, UK instead of Monaco.

    To be an independent country, Monaco needs its own Government and economy, and has its own prince. Is it really worth having all that just to be a separate country? Do you need a passport to cross the border from France into Monaco and vice-versa?

    Monaco has its own TV service TMC (Télé Monte Carlo). Apart from being a prerequisite to enter the Eurovision Song Contest, does such an infinitesimal country really need its own TV service? Surely it must be broadcast from a very low power terrestrial transmitter to cover such a tiny area and not leak too much into France; just like a low power relay transmitter here in the UK. I bet most Monacoan residents are also able to get French TV from a French transmitter even if that needs a second aerial.

    Monaco doesn't have its own train service, all trains running along its 1.7 km (1.1 miles) of track, and calling at Monte-Carlo station, are provided by SNCF (French Railways).

    Why don't they just merge Monaco into France? Such a pathetically infinitesimal country is way too small to be a standalone country! If it wants to retain its name, and remain the land unit it is, within its current land borderline as part of France, make it a French department, but even then it would surely be the smallest department in France. Monte Carlo would then be just another French Riviera town.
    6
    Yes
    66.67%
    4
    No
    16.67%
    1
    Not sure
    16.67%
    1
    I am 13 ... times 4.

  • #2
    Re: European Microstates

    Bit of random one this one, I guess the answer is, it's up to their people.
    The only thing to look forward to is the past

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    • #3
      Re: European Microstates

      OK folks, here are three more European Microstates. Each of the following is bigger than Vatican City and Monaco put together, but they are all still very tiny.

      San Marino
      At just over 61 square kilometres (24 square miles), San Marino is the fifth smallest country in the world. Is it really worth it being a standalone country in its own right? Although it claims to be the world's oldest surviving sovereign state, that's still no reason why it should remain independent. The world is not a museum, isn't it time to move on?

      Why not just make San Marino part of Italy? By all means keep its existing border and name (San Marino), but make the resulting area either a Region of Italy or a Province of Italy?.

      Liechtenstein
      A tiny landlocked country between Switzerland to the west and Austria to the east. With a geographical area of just over 160 square kilometres (62 square miles), it's the 6th smallest country in the world. Is there really any point in an area so small as Liechtenstein being a country in its own right? Just like I've already said about Monaco, in order to be a standalone country Liechtenstein needs its own Government and Prince, which seems pointless for such a small land area with a population of just 35,000.

      According to Wikipedia, Liechtenstein tried to enter the Eurovision Song Contest in 1976, with Biggi Bachman - "Little Cowboy". Unfortunately Liechtenstein could not take part as it didn't have its own TV broadcaster. Well that was hardly surprising, how could such a small country justify having its own TV broadcaster, especially as (according to Wikipedia) Liechtensteiners were able to watch the Eurovision Song Contest (and presumably other programmes too) on Swiss, Austrian or German television channels. It was only in summer 2008 that Liechtenstein got its first national TV broadcaster 1FLTV.

      My suggestion: merge Liechtenstein with Austria. By all means keep the currrent name Liechtenstein and its border, but make the area a state (Bundesland) of Austria. Then Liechtenstein (state of Austria) would be ruled by the Austrian Government and President.

      Andorra
      Located in the eastern Pyrenees between Spain and France. Granted it's one of the larger European microstates (bigger than Vatican City, Monaco, San Marino and Liechtenstein). Nonetheless, Andorra's area of just 468 square kilometres (181 square miles) still makes it the 6th smallest country in Europe and 16th smallest country in the world. In which case it still needs its own Government (separate from France and Spain) to be a standalone country. So how can Andorra justify being a country in its own right? I notice they didn't take part in the Eurovision Song Contest until 2004, from when they entered six consecutive years 2004 to 2009 inclusive. In that time they never qualified to the final, their best placing was 12th (80 points) in the 2007 semi-final. Interestingly they didn't enter 2010 to 2012 inclusive, and aren't in it this year.

      My suggestion: being as the official language of Andorra is Catalan, with Spanish commonly spoken (what's the difference between Spanish and Catalan?), Andorra rightfully belongs with Spain. Merge Andorra into Spain. I notice Spain is divided into autonomous communities, and Andorra lies next-door to the Spanish autonomous community Catalonia. Catalonia is itself divided into four Provinces, therefore make Andorra the fifth Province of Catalonia. That way Andorra would keep its existing name and boundary, it's just it would be a Province of Catalonia (i.e. part of Spain) rather than a pointless standalone tiny country.
      Last edited by Star Attraction; 08-06-2013, 17:53.
      I am 13 ... times 4.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: European Microstates

        I honestly don't get where you're coming from with this one. Why exactly in your opinion should these microstates merge with larger countries? Whilst you've made it clear that you are not in favour of microstates you don't appear to have given any reason (apart from the already apparent fact that they are small countries) as to why you feel this way and more importantly haven't suggested why it would be anyone's interest (either for the microstate or the country absorbing) for these mergers to occur?
        Last edited by Avahi1057; 08-06-2013, 18:02.

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        • #5
          Re: European Microstates

          Avahi1057, what I'm saying is this. Compare the size of Vatican City and Monaco to two UK theme parks Alton Towers and Thorpe Park.

          How can Vatican City, which at just 0.44 square km (0.17 square miles) is only a fraction the size of both parks justify being a country in its own right separate from Italy? How can Monaco, which is only just 0.02 square km larger than Thorpe Park and about two thirds the size of Alton Towers, justify having its own Government and Prince to be a standalone country separate from France? Monaco might just as well be part of France, ruled by the Government and President of France, had it not?

          Anyway moving swiftly on to another European country, which although not strictly a microstate, is still pathetically small: Luxembourg.

          Luxembourg
          Although larger than the European Microstates I've already described, The Grand Duchy of Luxembourg still quite a small country. According to Wikipedia, its area is 2,586.4 square km = 998.6 square miles, making it the 179th largest country in the world.

          Luxembourg used to be regular participants in the Eurovision Song Contest, but haven't entered since 1993. They last last hosted it in 1984. Here is a YouTube video of the 1984 ESC opening sequence that was shown in the UK, with Terry Wogan's commentary. At 1:57 Terry says:

          "Luxembourg itself is only aproximately 85 kilometres wide with a population in total of 350,000".

          Being as Luxembourg has an area of just 2,586.4 square km = 998.6 square miles, and is is about 85 kilometres (just over 53 miles) wide, is it really worth Luxembourg being a country in its own right?

          Why don't they just remove the Belgium-Luxembourg border and make Luxembourg part of Belgium? In fact, earlier this year, I discovered from Wikipedia that as well as the country Luxembourg (officially Grand Duchy of Luxembourg), there's the southernmost province of the Wallonia part of Belgium also called Luxembourg. On those grounds the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg ought to be merged with Luxembourg (Wallonia province) to make one bigger Luxembourg province as part of the Wallonia part of Belgium.
          I am 13 ... times 4.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: European Microstates

            It would seem that your only two source's of information would be Wikipedia and the Eurovision Song Contest! the first being highly dubious in accuracy and the second being known for being something no one in there right mind would take seriously, ever!

            I think it would be fair to say these small nations have a far more secure financial future compered to the countrys to which you would have them annexed...

            This is all obviously a wind up or some serious Trolling, or both.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: European Microstates

              Originally posted by ricasso View Post
              I think it would be fair to say these small nations have a far more secure financial future compered to the countrys to which you would have them annexed...
              Are you saying Vatican City and San Marino both have more secure financial futures than Italy, which I've said they ought both to become part of? Likewise are you saying Andorra has a more secure financial future than Spain?
              I am 13 ... times 4.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: European Microstates

                Originally posted by Star Attraction View Post
                Are you saying Vatican City and San Marino both have more secure financial futures than Italy, which I've said they ought both to become part of? Likewise are you saying Andorra has a more secure financial future than Spain?
                Yes, why shouldnt they? even though they use the Euro that doesnt mean they have to be linked with the failing economy's of Italy, Spain etc.

                But can you actually tell me, and other forum members who are probably wondering the same, just what is your reason for wanting to see this happen? what have they ever done to you? dont forget, the last person to try "annexing" european country's died in a hole in the ground in Berlin in 1945..

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: European Microstates

                  Do not get me started on the Vatican city ........ what is the point of an indepedant state that is inhabited by men who wear dresses and talk to an imaginary friend who never answers back who just happens to be homophobic and procliams that you will burn in hell if you do anything bad or dont belive in him but claims to "love you unconditionally"

                  oh and for good measure is one of the richest "countries" on the planet but claims to be for the good of all ........ so give up your land / money /wealth and give it to the needy ........ hypocrites

                  Sorry ......... I dont do religion
                  Age is just a number - If yours bothers you stop counting

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                  • #10
                    Re: European Microstates

                    not really bothered about the others to be honest
                    Age is just a number - If yours bothers you stop counting

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                    • #11
                      Re: European Microstates

                      Out of curiosity, what would be the parameters in determining who or what can qualify as a nation-state? Does its sovereign territory have to be at least a certain amount of square miles/kilometers? Personally, I wouldn't mind starting my own country.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: European Microstates

                        I like your thread about Euro Micro-states Star Attractions, it is very interesting indeed. Ithink i'd say it's up to the ountries in question if they want to be their own Country. After all the Isle of Man seems to cope very well while stil;l being Geographicaly close to the UK. I admire contries etc who want to remain on their own, it is yet another thing that is dying loosing small indepedent contries, which generaly if not will be "eaten up" by larger ones. If this is what the people want and desire and the majority etc wins,why not I say.

                        80sChav

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                        • #13
                          Re: European Microstates

                          The Principality of Sealand. A former sea fort located six miles off the suffolk cost. Never officially recognized by any sovereign state though.
                          http://www.sealandgov.org/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: European Microstates

                            The key question in all of these cases is do the people of the small country concerned want to be subsumed into a larger neighbour?

                            And if you're going to start including places such as Luxembourg, then there are some Crown Dependencies nearer to home to consider as well: The Isle of Man is smaller than Luxembourg in both area and population, so should it just become part of the United Kingdom? How about Jersey and Guernsey, both of which are under 50 sq. miles each and with populations only just about reaching six figures in Jersey, less for Guernsey?

                            I suspect the residents of all three of these jurisdictions would have something to say about it.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: European Microstates

                              Originally posted by PC66 View Post
                              And if you're going to start including places such as Luxembourg, then there are some Crown Dependencies nearer to home to consider as well: The Isle of Man is smaller than Luxembourg in both area and population, so should it just become part of the United Kingdom? How about Jersey and Guernsey, both of which are under 50 sq. miles each and with populations only just about reaching six figures in Jersey, less for Guernsey?
                              I first found out from an IBA Television and Radio annual (1983 or 1984) that the Channel Islands are not part of the United Kingdom (but nonetheless have an ITV regional service). Ever since then I've found it really odd that the Channel Islands are part of the British Isles, but not part of the United Kingdom. So if you take your car there you need a GB sticker to show you're from the mainland, yet if you're from the UK you don't need a passport to go there. It all seems strange and daft to me, but that's life. Even weirder is the fact that the Channel Islands are divided into two politcally separate Baliwicks: Jersey and Guernsey (which includes Alderney, Herm, Sark and other islands). Think about it - how can a group of islands be part of the British Isles but not part of the United Kingdom? It doesn't make any sense to me.

                              To sum up my suggestions that I've made in this thread (and elsewhere) to eradicate the European microstates:
                              Vatican City: make it a Municipio of Rome
                              Monaco: make it a Department of France.
                              San Marino: make it either a Region of Italy or a Province of Italy.
                              Liechtenstein: make it a state (Bundesland) of Austria.
                              Andorra: make it the fifth Province of Catalonia, which itself is already part of Spain.
                              Grand Duchy of Luxembourg: make it part of the southernmost province of Belgium (which funnily enough is also called Luxembourg).
                              I am 13 ... times 4.

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