Punk Rock

[the-peoples-poet]

Re: Punk Rock

I think he's one of those people you either 'get' or you don't. I just do.

[DemonEyeX]

Re: Punk Rock

The butter adverts were the final straw for me.
It just seems so hypocritical, doing the things that you speak out against.
I used to like him, but now it all just seems so fake.

[the-peoples-poet]

Re: Punk Rock

He never spoke out against anything like that though, from what I saw. He always said he was interested in doing different things, an advert was different. I ****** myself laughing when I saw them. He can have my crumpets anytime!

[Nostalgia]

Re: Punk Rock

Nostalgia - Seems you and I are one and the same. I too am a Protestand Ulsterwoman and proud of it. The 12th of July is the best day of the year in Belfast, I love it and have only missed a handful of days in Belfast since I was born back in 79. I was there this year with my Aunt and Uncle and there was a Chinese family stood next to us, husband, wife and grown-up son. The wife was having a great time! Waving her arms in the air, dancing to the music, jugging up and down, she loved it! Was nice to see, made a nice change to see some 'other' faces there. I'd recommend that as a day out for anyone.


As for punk, love it, but personally, it ended when John Lydon left the Pistols. He was the sould of British punk for me, still is and always will be. I love him more than I can put into words. He is uncompromising, straight-forward, plain speaking and with an attitude that could curdle your blood. He's a true British hero and he doesn't get anywhere near the recognition or respect he deserves - except from the ones that know. You get no bullshit from him and I respect that in anyone. I have always loved his attitude too, mainly because it's quite like my own. You speak your mind, be true to yourself and if anyone else doesn't like it or can't deal with it, stick two fingers up to them and move on. It's their loss.

The recent Punk Britannia series on BBC Four was excellent I though, I really enjoyed it.

Great to hear that some members of the Chinese community are attempting to assimilate by looking upon the positive side of the Twelfth and enjoying its cultural delights. There's two sides to the Ulster story. Republicans have told their story to the world, we have yet to tell our story of what it's like to feel like an oppressed people.

As regards Lydon, I loved the guy when I was younger. I was into the Sex Pistols in a big way, before getting into the hardcore punk movement in Belfast. There's not much physical trace of punk left now, as I just turned 44 (ouch!), am nourishing a pot-belly, and become more folically challenged with every passing year. But I was there, I experienced the anger and aggression, I got into and revelled in the music and the politics of punk, and I still reject the capitalist system and the mainstream establishment.

Punk was much more than just music, it was a set of values, beliefs and an attitude; and in the face of the devious banking elite, spineless politicians, and the inherent corruption of corporatism and big business, punk is needed more now today than ever. It was interesting to see the anti-capitalist movement take off in the 90's. Punk was the fore-runner to all of that, and it was encouraging to see people finally take the blindfolds off and get off their knees.

I used to have some difficulty reconciling Anarchism with Ulster Unionism, as they are at different ends of the political spectrum. But we all have to live with our contradictions.

No Surrender.

[the-peoples-poet]

Re: Punk Rock

Yes, we do have to tell our story, but I know it won't be accepted by lots of people here, they will probably come off with 'your making it up' etc, or saying that we are all liars. Dare we to say that about them though and we are the worst in the world. Hypocracy much?

Punk will always be around, maybe not in a physical form, but the attitudes will always be here, they will always be adopted or born within people. It won't ever truly go. As for rejecting the capitalist system, that's where we differ, I am afraid, I am, and being honest with the benefit of hindsight, I have always been capitalist in nature, I believe in capitalism, it's not as bad as the lefties paint it. If it weren't for capitalism, centuries ago, we wouldn't have had philanthropy and charities would never have been created, poor/ill/vulnerable peoples would still be suffering. There is a few bad apples out there who give it a bad name, but it's not all bad. Think of it in a historical context and you might begin to understand better

I could never relate to the anit-capitalist lobby, I just never saw their pov on things. Money does make the world go round and if it wasn't for people having a capitalist mindset, there wouldn't be any companies, there wouldn't be any job opps either. Capitalism pays bills for millions. Look at all the government owned/run organisations in the country, they are woefully inadequate, their books don't balance, I believe govs. shouldn't be allowed to own or run anything, no matter who is in Westminster, essentially, they never quite get it right, and this is coming from a Tory!

How can you not connect anarchism and UU? We were the tyranised, though the other side would dispute that *rolls eyes* and our political parties stood up for us and our beliefs and said No, that won't do, we won't tolerate what you are doing to us. I personally believe Ian Paisley was one of the true political punks, though he would probably hate the comparison!

Deus Salvum Regina

[Nostalgia]

Re: Punk Rock

Yes, we do have to tell our story, but I know it won't be accepted by lots of people here, they will probably come off with 'your making it up' etc, or saying that we are all liars. Dare we to say that about them though and we are the worst in the world. Hypocracy much?

Punk will always be around, maybe not in a physical form, but the attitudes will always be here, they will always be adopted or born within people. It won't ever truly go. As for rejecting the capitalist system, that's where we differ, I am afraid, I am, and being honest with the benefit of hindsight, I have always been capitalist in nature, I believe in capitalism, it's not as bad as the lefties paint it. If it weren't for capitalism, centuries ago, we wouldn't have had philanthropy and charities would never have been created, poor/ill/vulnerable peoples would still be suffering. There is a few bad apples out there who give it a bad name, but it's not all bad. Think of it in a historical context and you might begin to understand better

I could never relate to the anti-capitalist lobby, I just never saw their pov on things. Money does make the world go round and if it wasn't for people having a capitalist mindset, there wouldn't be any companies, there wouldn't be any job opps either. Capitalism pays bills for millions. Look at all the government owned/run organisations in the country, they are woefully inadequate, their books don't balance, I believe govs. shouldn't be allowed to own or run anything, no matter who is in Westminster, essentially, they never quite get it right, and this is coming from a Tory!

How can you not connect anarchism and UU? We were the tyranised, though the other side would dispute that *rolls eyes* and our political parties stood up for us and our beliefs and said No, that won't do, we won't tolerate what you are doing to us. I personally believe Ian Paisley was one of the true political punks, though he would probably hate the comparison!

Deus Salvum Regina

Oh dear Lord. A punk-Tory-capitalist? The internet is an interesting place; throws up all manner of very unusual people.

I'll keep this brief: punk rock was the antithesis of capitalism, conservatism and Toryism. There is simply no way that anyone in the early 80's could have called themselves a punk and/or an Anarchist, and also a capitalist or a Tory. These ideologies are diametrically opposed to one another. Punk advocated Anarchism as a political ideological alternative to capitalism. The Anarcho-punk movement, spearheaded by Crass et al, wanted the to see the abolishment of capitalism more than anything. Even the bands that weren't particularly anarcho in nature were opposed to capitalism, as capitalism was perceived (and still is) as the root of all socio-economic evil ie. responsible for the widening gap between rich and poor, burgeoning social inequality, and the continued exploitation of the great majority by a tiny parasitical minority. Anti-capitalism was a huge component of the Punk rock value system and ethos, and still is today.

You're sitting in the box, thinking inside the box; punk was all about offering a radical alternative to capitalism and the status quo. It was about rebellion.

We Ulster Unionists may have been tyrannised (and still covertly are, you just have to come into contact with Nationalists to experience it), but Anarchism and Ulster Unionism have very little in common. Anarchism is on the extreme left of the political spectrum, whereas Unionism is very much more right wing in political orientation. Anarchists want to see the abolition of the British Monarchy, Unionists are very much in favour of sustaining the Monarchy, in fact that is the very essence of "Loyalism". Unionists value tradition, are pro-capitalist and pro-union. Anarchists look upon tradition as favouring the privileged elite, are anti-capitalist, and internationalist, opposing any unions of nations or power structures.

So although we can draw upon the sentiments of some Anarchist philosophers (as Ian Adamson did in his excellent book "The Cruthin") in our defence as an unrecognised oppressed people, Anarchism and Unionism are still political poles apart; pointing in opposite directions.

I stopped calling myself an Anarchist when I was 20, coming to view Socialism is a more practical way forward. The Torys are only interested in robbing the poor to feed the rich and priveleged class to which they belong as they have always done, so I still view Socialism as the only practicable alternative.

Some obscure slogan in Latin.

[the-peoples-poet]

Re: Punk Rock

I have never seen any politics in any music, whether it is there intentionally or not, I dont' want to see any politics in music. I listen to what I listen to becasue I like it, no other reason. I have never once called myself an anarchist, nor would I ever. I am too conservative (with a small c) to do that. To me music is fun, it's about having a good time and a bit of escapism, that's what punk is to me, it's just good fun and while I dont' necessarily agree with the sentiments in the Sex Pistols track God Save The Queen, it doesn't mean I can't like it as asong/piece of music. It's got a great riff and a brilliant catchy melody and is loud and shouty. I like that. I have never regarded myself as a socialist either, I can't hold with their ideals. 15 years of New Labour rule was quite enough, the Labour party and all they stand for, to be very blunt, sickens me. Tony Blair and his cronies have a lot to answer for and I hope that I am here to see him get his comeuppance one day.

In case you were wondering/interested, Deus Salvum Regina means God Save The Queen.

[havasack]

Re: Punk Rock

Hang on peoples poet, at one point your saying that the Pistols did have something to say then come out with that above ? What was it they were trying to say as for me, of the bands around at the time they were the least talented and with the least to say....made for great newspaper coverage though which isn't supposed to be the point.

[ayrshireman]

Re: Punk Rock

The butter adverts were the final straw for me.
It just seems so hypocritical, doing the things that you speak out against.
I used to like him, but now it all just seems so fake.

Lydon was frankly never a true believer in the punk ethos, so I wish people would stop moaning he has sold out. Iggy Pop too.

(Are there people still out there that believe rock and roll was ever about real rebellion?. It has always been about marketing a product and making money. From the days of Col Parker.....if you understand that, you can still love pop and rock and roll for what it is: just music.)

[mazzer]

Re: Punk Rock

Interesting debate going on here! I was too young to be into punk proper at the time, but me big bruv was a fan and got me into a lot of stuff like the Pistols, Siouxsie, Buzzcocks, Joy Division,X-ray Spex etc, though a lot of that stuff was more New Wave than Punk. Saw the Stranglers (minus Hugh Cornwall ) at Isle of Wight Fetival this summer, great trip down memory lane (which I think this site is all about, n'est-ce pas?), Jean-Jaques Burnel hasn't changed a bit, and I had the Spex on in the car only this morning, brought a wee lump to my throat. Can't believe we lost Poly Styrene AND Amy Winehouse in the same year! Punk Britannia was an excellent presentation. I never really got into the hardcore "politics" of the likes of Crass, the spirit of punk for me was anarchic in the sense that it simply challenged the status quo and encouraged us to think for ourselves, not necessarily follow any particular dogma - just don ' t accept what you 're told without question. I think this spirit was hijacked and converted into a political vehicle by some with an agenda - and surely punk was about self expression and not adhering to an agenda of ANY kind?
I love that Joy Division claim to have been inspired by the Pistol's famous gig, not for being prophetic geniuses of their time, but because they were so c**p at playing their instruments Sumner, Hookie et al realised they could do much better! It was all about having a go, whether you had talent or not. To quote one of my favourite Orange Juice songs " I remember the halcyon days, we leapt onstage though we couldn't play, furthermore we had nothing to say......" Sigh!

[philipdalton]

Re: Punk Rock

Why did The Stranglers call one of their albums Live (X Cert)? Is it because of some of the lyrics of the songs or the language they used to the audience during the gig?

[Charlie]

Re: Punk Rock

Lydon was frankly never a true believer in the punk ethos, so I wish people would stop moaning he has sold out.

Agreed. The Pistols were a boy band. They inspired people who came later and I enjoy the music but there's little behind it. Malcolm McLaren pushed the Annarchy image as he knew it would sell. (And Lydon was much better in PiL)

Bands like the Clash and Stiff Little Fingers actually had something to say.

I have never seen any politics in any music, whether it is there intentionally or not, I dont' want to see any politics in music.

In any music? This is a very odd statement.

[sixtyten]

Re: Punk Rock

Why did The Stranglers call one of their albums Live (X Cert)? Is it because of some of the lyrics of the songs or the language they used to the audience during the gig?

I've always taken it to mean both X Certificate AND Excerpt (from a concert)