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The end of ITV as we used to know it - 30 years on

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Arran View Post
    It was a sad demise to Central...

    Mountains of stuff have been written about Thames losing their franchise in 1991 and the resulting impact it has had on ITV and its programmes. Less has been written about the decimation of Central following the mergers which created a unified ITV.
    I have always said that it was conspiracy theories around the TV industry, that Death on the Rock was responsible for Thames' loss.

    I've everything I need to keep me satisfied
    There's nothing you can do to make me change my mind
    I'm having so much fun
    My lucky number's one
    Ah! Oh! Ah! Oh!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by George 1978 View Post
      I have always said that it was conspiracy theories around the TV industry, that Death on the Rock was responsible for Thames' loss.
      The real reason Thames lost was because it was not providing a good local service to its region, or reflecting its changing demographics. The ITC kept this secret because there would be public outrage.

      Thames was, in effect, a factory for networked popular entertainment programmes with a local news service. ITV companies had to provide a good local service to their region if they were to win at the franchise round. Grampian was excellent at providing a local service which is why it won despite being outbid by two companies.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by George 1978 View Post
        And it was Carlton that took over Central - at least Central still made their own programmes. I actually thought that London weekday and Midlands would have been two powerful on the network, even if Granada had took over most of the other Engish regions.
        The problem with Carlton in the 1990s is that it's London weekday region was a publisher broadcaster from the outset but it's Midlands region was a massive programme factory. Carlton had no interest, or experience, in producing television programmes, so they ran down Central over the years. The huge Broad Street studios in Birmingham were closed in 1997 following the construction of a very small studio in Gas Street, now used only for local news. The Lenton Lane studios in Nottingham - constructed in the early 1980s as part of the restructuring of ATV into Central in order to better serve the East Midlands - were closed in 2005 as they were surplus to requirements following the merger of Carlton with Granada.

        Central, like Thames, was large enough in the early 1990s to become a successful national satellite TV channel.

        Comment


        • #34
          Does anyone think that the Broadcasting Act 1990 was a mistake to begin with?
          I've everything I need to keep me satisfied
          There's nothing you can do to make me change my mind
          I'm having so much fun
          My lucky number's one
          Ah! Oh! Ah! Oh!

          Comment


          • #35
            Oh, yes!
            But technology will force a change - once automation becomes commonplace in the 1990s, even a surviving IBA ITV won't need such big studio complexes or amounts of equipment so the different independent ITV companies will scale things down any way.
            https://rewoundradio.com/

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by George 1978 View Post
              Does anyone think that the Broadcasting Act 1990 was a mistake to begin with?
              Yes.

              I think the biggest problem was the requirement that ITV companies in 1993 and beyond had to show a minimum of 25% of all programmes from independent producers, and could even be publisher broadcasters outsourcing all production to independent producers.

              This was the result of pressure by independent producers to open up ITV to their programmes back in the 1980s, combined with the success of C4 at creating an independent TV production industry in Britain. But ITV isn't C4 and C4 isn't ITV...

              The government were wrongfooted because they failed to see that satellite and cable TV was about to take off in a big way, so there would be plenty of channels other than C4 for independent producers to broadcast their programmes, and conversely the new satellite and cable channels will require programmes to fill them.

              I previously mentioned that I think the entire concept of ITV companies operating as publisher broadcasters has been very unsuccessful, and is now questionably obsolete. Ironically, the most successful independent producer for ITV is Thames!

              If ITV companies had to make 75% of their programmes in 1993 then it would have prevented Carlton from swinging the wrecking ball at large production facilities - such as those owned by Central. Carlton might not have bothered applying for the London weekday franchise in 1991 if they had to produce 75% of their programmes, but instead increased their stake in Central if they didn't win the south east franchise and take over the TVS studio in Southampton.

              I also blame the NuLab government for not holding another franchise round in the early 2000s when there was still interest in regional terrestrial TV by viewers and broadcasters.

              Comment


              • #37
                If we get rid of all employees think of that much more money to be made!
                My virtual jigsaws: https://www.jigsawplanet.com/beccabear67/Original-photo-puzzles

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                • #38
                  commercial radio - which has given me pay cheques at points in my life - is not much better today. It is firmly becoming national networks with opt-outs for local weather and ads.
                  https://rewoundradio.com/

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Arran View Post

                    The real reason Thames lost was because it was not providing a good local service to its region, or reflecting its changing demographics. The ITC kept this secret because there would be public outrage.

                    Thames was, in effect, a factory for networked popular entertainment programmes with a local news service. ITV companies had to provide a good local service to their region if they were to win at the franchise round. Grampian was excellent at providing a local service which is why it won despite being outbid by two companies.
                    I was expecting the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude from the ITC like they did with Granada and LWT. Two programmes that Carlton helped to continue however was Catchphrase and The Bill.

                    Any company that relies too much on independents like Carlton was, makes me feel whether they would have succeeded the quality threshold in the first place. I always associate minority programming with being commissioned by independents for Channel 4 - I could imagine a Carlton New Year as being a sub-Jools Holland Hootnanny or Whistle Test show for Channel 4 rather than ITV in London. Makes you wish that STV's Hogmanay show was still networked south of the border.
                    I've everything I need to keep me satisfied
                    There's nothing you can do to make me change my mind
                    I'm having so much fun
                    My lucky number's one
                    Ah! Oh! Ah! Oh!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Transferring Southern Scotland to STV from Border is likely in the medium term.
                      https://rewoundradio.com/

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        The Border region situation has always been a curious one - it serves areas that are too far west for Tyne Tees; too far north for Granada and too far south for STV - look at how people in Dumfries complained about getting "local" news from Gateshead if a merger with Tyne Tees was on the cards.

                        In 1961, Granada and ABC wanted Cumbria to be part of their area but the ITA insisted that the area was "marginal".

                        However, I believe that viewers in that area have an "if it ain't broke, then don't fix it" attitude to their region, mostly as it is an area that resists change than in the south.
                        I've everything I need to keep me satisfied
                        There's nothing you can do to make me change my mind
                        I'm having so much fun
                        My lucky number's one
                        Ah! Oh! Ah! Oh!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          George, if in 1968, the weekday/weekend split had been kept in the ATV and Granada/Yorkshire regions like it was in London, how much difference would it make for the ITV network going forward?
                          https://rewoundradio.com/

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I don't think that it would have been kept - there was only a weekday/weekend split in the Midlands and North because ATV had both franchises in London and the Midlands - they wouldn't have had a seven day contract in the Midlands as well as London Weekends. ATV had more of a local identity in the Midlands and so that was why they got that region seven days a week.

                            The way those regions were formed in 1956 was the reason why a weekday/weekend split existed originally. By 1968 it was realised that local identities in the Midlands needed to be looked at, and that one company would be the best way of maintaining that. Basically, ATV swapped London for the Midlands in 1968. And even then, the formation of Central was another reason that the region needed to represent the area it served a lot more. It needed to change in order for the network to move forward - Granada was heavily biased towards the North West and it was obvious that Yorkshire needed its own company on the Eastern side of the Pennines.

                            I've everything I need to keep me satisfied
                            There's nothing you can do to make me change my mind
                            I'm having so much fun
                            My lucky number's one
                            Ah! Oh! Ah! Oh!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              The actual people that made up those newer or enlarged franchises often came from ATV/London and went to Leeds and/or Birmingham, even equipment. So new was never entirely new but included a lot of experience. Yorkshire made a lot of good television. They went to far with the out-sourcing and contracting out that was forced... what's so great about a lot of temps coming in and out and overall the steady staff being dispersed among smaller for profit production companies? That's probably what led to a glut of low budget plus no great skills required to make 'reality' type shows.
                              My virtual jigsaws: https://www.jigsawplanet.com/beccabear67/Original-photo-puzzles

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by George 1978 View Post
                                Any company that relies too much on independents like Carlton was, makes me feel whether they would have succeeded the quality threshold in the first place.
                                I agree with that one. Installing a publisher broadcaster for such a big region as London weekday was a huge risk because it would have been very difficult to gauge the quality of programmes it would have sourced. Thames may have been preoccupied with popular entertainment for prime time but it had a solid track record when it came to producing good quality programming.

                                There is a bold theory that Thames lost in order to save Teddington Studios from the wrecking ball of Carlton, like what happened to Central, because Carlton would have tried to take over Thames (for a second time) if it won. I'm not sure how plausible this theory is.

                                I always associate minority programming with being commissioned by independents for Channel 4 - I could imagine a Carlton New Year as being a sub-Jools Holland Hootnanny or Whistle Test show for Channel 4 rather than ITV in London. Makes you wish that STV's Hogmanay show was still networked south of the border.
                                ITV companies had to serve their regions and the interests of its viewers back when franchise rounds were held. The demographics of the London ITV region are such that it's questionable whether there even is a majority, or instead there is a patchwork quilt of many minorities. Demographics of the region extends to stockbrokers in Rickmansworth and affluent residents of Oxted with an AGA in their kitchen, or those Guardian reading champagne socialists in Hampstead, as much as it does to Bangladeshis in Tower Hamlets or Turkish Cypriots in Enfield. There's also a sizeable Scottish population in the region who might be interested in the Hogmanay Show and other local programmes from STV and Grampian.

                                TVS stated in 1982 that "there will be laser beam tightly targetted programmes aimed at specific minority audiences". Their region at the time was over 95% white British with the majority in the ABC1 socioeconomic groups. If they can do it, then can an ITV company for London weekday? Thames doesn't seem to be able to...

                                Channel 4 just isn't big enough for minority programmes commissioned by independents to meet the needs and requirements of the London ITV region, and there must be sufficient national interest as it's a national channel, so how about opening up ITV in London for them?

                                Did the demographics of the London ITV region add further pressure to open up ITV to independent producers, or even initiated the bold and risky move of allowing an ITV company to be a publisher broadcaster?

                                Did the ITC take a huge gamble with Carlton, and in a few years time found out they lost because Carlton never acquired the programmes to serve the interests of the thousand and one minorities in its region?

                                There is a big question over scheduling for a region as diverse as London if a high proportion of such programmes are broadcast.

                                I have thought about whether London weekday really is the jewel in the crown of ITV regions or whether its demographics is its dark side.

                                Do many people in the London ITV region even watch ITV any more? Satellite and cable channels, and later YouTube, provided a mechanism to deliver the tightly targetted programmes aimed at specific minority audiences. The concept of an ITV company as a publisher broadcaster sourcing programmes from independent producers to serve a patchwork quilt of many minorities is obsolete.

                                Also take into account that advertising rates for ITV in London were too high for most businesses owned by people from immigrant (and some other minority) communities back in the 1990s. In the Border ITV region there were commercials from small village shops, self employed plumbers, and even people selling their 3 bedroom semi-detached house.

                                PSB really has become a funny thing on ITV. Apart from local news, what exactly can ITV offer to people in the London ITV region that isn't already offered by the BBC or readily available online?

                                It all makes me wonder if we should hold another franchise round where the best choice for London weekday from 2025 is to bring back Thames!

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